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deFT New Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Total posts: 19 Gender: Unknown 288.86 Points
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Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: developing fast twitch muscle fibers? |
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| How can you tell if you have fast or slow twitch muscles? If you have slow twitch muscle fibers, how do you develop fast twitch muscle fibers? |
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OmniSpiker Priceless Contributor
Joined: 09 Feb 2004 Total posts: 3621 Location: Lil'Can Age: 36 Gender: Male 24707.19 Points
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Jump!!! _________________ "I''m handicapped on an overkill assignment...mobile, agile, and hostile. I''m still learning only, becuase I don''t know anything about volleyball."
"There''s that funny thing about a B player trying to teach an A player volleyball!" |
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himespau Moderator
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Total posts: 13498 Location: Boston, MA Age: 31 Gender: Male 24852.95 Points
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| It's my understanding that everyone has a bit of both, it's just the ratios of fast to slow that are different (I could be completely wrong about that though). I'd always heard that lifting for power, sprinting, jumping for max and other anaerobic max efforts type things increased either the strength of those fast twitch muscles or their proportion of total muscle fibers. |
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OmniSpiker Priceless Contributor
Joined: 09 Feb 2004 Total posts: 3621 Location: Lil'Can Age: 36 Gender: Male 24707.19 Points
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Static shock! _________________ "I''m handicapped on an overkill assignment...mobile, agile, and hostile. I''m still learning only, becuase I don''t know anything about volleyball."
"There''s that funny thing about a B player trying to teach an A player volleyball!" |
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Daniel Martinez Member Joined: 02 Feb 2007 Total posts: 125 Location: Austin/San Antonio, Texas Gender: Male 1424.03 Points
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Vertical jump performance is a pretty decent indicator of fast-twitch fiber make-up.
The ratio of fast to slow twitch fibers changes from muscle to muscle and group to group. Some serve you better for endurance, and some better for speed.
This is old terminology but tonic muscles are typically more endurance, or postural if you will (soleus muscle of the ankle), and phasic muscles are for more dynamic tasks (such as jumping, sprinting, etc.; eg is the gastrocnemius of the ankle). So you can see that even with the two primary ankle extensors, one is typically (emphasis) better for one role and the other for a different role.
The goal of training is to re-train your slow-twitch fibers to perform as fast-twitch fibers by jumping, sprinting, performing explosive power work in general as noted by himespau. |
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OmniSpiker Priceless Contributor
Joined: 09 Feb 2004 Total posts: 3621 Location: Lil'Can Age: 36 Gender: Male 24707.19 Points
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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LOL's
try fly swatting! bare hands! _________________ "I''m handicapped on an overkill assignment...mobile, agile, and hostile. I''m still learning only, becuase I don''t know anything about volleyball."
"There''s that funny thing about a B player trying to teach an A player volleyball!" |
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Vrt4u Member Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Total posts: 50 Gender: Male 510.26 Points
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: Lifting |
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By doing heavy lifts that force you to use all of your muscles you can strengthen your fast twitch muscles. But it should take you less then 4 seconds to complete one rep (thats rep not set). Doing endurance training like jogging can hurt you fast twitch muscles. Some people have a higher % of fast twitch muscles then others but everyone can improve there speed and jumping abilites. Here are some links on the subject
http://www.sportandfit-library.co.nr/musclefiber.htm |
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DavetheDog Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Total posts: 432 Location: The Thundercat's lair Gender: Unknown 2610.21 Points
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Lifting |
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| Vrt4u wrote: | By doing heavy lifts that force you to use all of your muscles you can strengthen your fast twitch muscles. But it should take you less then 4 seconds to complete one rep (thats rep not set). Doing endurance training like jogging can hurt you fast twitch muscles. Some people have a higher % of fast twitch muscles then others but everyone can improve there speed and jumping abilites. Here are some links on the subject
http://www.sportandfit-library.co.nr/musclefiber.htm |
Where did the 4 second figure come from? Did you make that up?
Max strength work + RFD work + good lower body flexibility = good jump |
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Daniel Martinez Member Joined: 02 Feb 2007 Total posts: 125 Location: Austin/San Antonio, Texas Gender: Male 1424.03 Points
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Lifting |
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| DavetheDog wrote: | | Vrt4u wrote: | By doing heavy lifts that force you to use all of your muscles you can strengthen your fast twitch muscles. But it should take you less then 4 seconds to complete one rep (thats rep not set). Doing endurance training like jogging can hurt you fast twitch muscles. Some people have a higher % of fast twitch muscles then others but everyone can improve there speed and jumping abilites. Here are some links on the subject
http://www.sportandfit-library.co.nr/musclefiber.htm |
Where did the 4 second figure come from? Did you make that up?
Max strength work + RFD work + good lower body flexibility = good jump |
4 seconds does seem a little odd. I'm assuming he's talking energy systems, but that's a pretty bold statement. And an inaccurate one. |
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Vrt4u Member Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Total posts: 50 Gender: Male 510.26 Points
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: If |
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If I would have made it up myself then I am sure that I would have had a good reason. But I didn't
| Quote: | You should be able to complete your maximum lifts in 4 seconds or
less from start to finish. If it takes you longer then that any extra strength you gain
won’t be very useful when performing a high-speed maneuver like a jump. | The
Vertical Jump
Development
Bible
He also talks about it somewhere else but I can't find the link. |
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Grasschopper Senior Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Total posts: 830 Location: Central PA Age: 36 Gender: Male 4479.02 Points
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: |
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There was a recent study done that says you can in fact train and build fast or slow twitch fibers in your body. Basically you have to preform the exercises that would use fast twitch muscle to build it...hmm that makes sense. So sprinting, jumping etc can and will increase your fast twitch fibers. _________________
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Daniel Martinez Member Joined: 02 Feb 2007 Total posts: 125 Location: Austin/San Antonio, Texas Gender: Male 1424.03 Points
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: If |
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| Vrt4u wrote: | If I would have made it up myself then I am sure that I would have had a good reason. But I didn't
| Quote: | You should be able to complete your maximum lifts in 4 seconds or
less from start to finish. If it takes you longer then that any extra strength you gain
won’t be very useful when performing a high-speed maneuver like a jump. | The
Vertical Jump
Development
Bible
He also talks about it somewhere else but I can't find the link. |
You've taken kelly's words out of context. He's describing maximal lifts (maximum effort work as defined by zatsiorsky) and you're talking about doing all repetitions in that range. Generally speaking, the repetition speed rule is correct, but if you manipulate areas of the lift (especially the eccentric and eccentric-isometric phases) by adjusting the tempo of the lift (slow eccentrics [lowering] and pausing) you can get a good training effect. Be careful not to over-simplify a concept. When we post advice, there's a responsibility to make sure we post a complete picture of the processes involved. |
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Vrt4u Member Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Total posts: 50 Gender: Male 510.26 Points
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: Very |
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| Quote: | | but if you manipulate areas of the lift (especially the eccentric and eccentric-isometric phases) by adjusting the tempo of the lift (slow eccentrics [lowering] and pausing) you can get a good training effect. Be careful not to over-simplify a concept. |
Very few people need to worry about that stuff. In fact if you are not already well aware of what you are doing then I wouldn't advise even worrying about doing slow lifts, negatives etc... Just lift hard and heavy keep it under 4 seconds stop a couple reps shy of failure and thats about all you need to know.  |
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Daniel Martinez Member Joined: 02 Feb 2007 Total posts: 125 Location: Austin/San Antonio, Texas Gender: Male 1424.03 Points
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Very |
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| Vrt4u wrote: | | Quote: | | but if you manipulate areas of the lift (especially the eccentric and eccentric-isometric phases) by adjusting the tempo of the lift (slow eccentrics [lowering] and pausing) you can get a good training effect. Be careful not to over-simplify a concept. |
Very few people need to worry about that stuff. In fact if you are not already well aware of what you are doing then I wouldn't advise even worrying about doing slow lifts, negatives etc... Just lift hard and heavy keep it under 4 seconds stop a couple reps shy of failure and thats about all you need to know.  |
I'm tired of your nonsense and over-simplifications. Apparently, you're trying to capitalize on a business that you have no knowledge of. You can't piggy-back on good coaches and writers, pop up a website, and be counted as an individual capable of helping others with their vertical jump.
"Just lift hard and heavy..." blah, blah, blah. This is always what I hear when the foundation of one's knowledge is challenged and they realize they don't have a foot to stand on. |
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Vrt4u Member Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Total posts: 50 Gender: Male 510.26 Points
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: I |
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| Frankly I sometimes run into people on forums that I don't agree with but I don't typicaly attack them. I just study and try to make sure that I know more then them. I would love to get two identical clones and let you train one and let me train one then compare them but I don't see that happening. |
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Daniel Martinez Member Joined: 02 Feb 2007 Total posts: 125 Location: Austin/San Antonio, Texas Gender: Male 1424.03 Points
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: I |
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| Vrt4u wrote: | | Frankly I sometimes run into people on forums that I don't agree with but I don't typicaly attack them. I just study and try to make sure that I know more then them. I would love to get two identical clones and let you train one and let me train one then compare them but I don't see that happening. |
You can't rip-off kelly baggett for your responses to questions and then talk about how smart you are. You haven't posted an original thought yet. I'll just agree to disagree with you and your thoughts on training. I wasn't aware you EVER trained anyone. |
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DavetheDog Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Total posts: 432 Location: The Thundercat's lair Gender: Unknown 2610.21 Points
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Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: Re: I |
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| Vrt4u wrote: | | Frankly I sometimes run into people on forums that I don't agree with but I don't typicaly attack them. I just study and try to make sure that I know more then them. I would love to get two identical clones and let you train one and let me train one then compare them but I don't see that happening. |
Don't be so melodramatic. 'Attack'? Welcome to the intarweb.
I don't see the clone situation happening either. But thanks for contributing to the overall quality of the thread I wonder if you'd have sourced the 4 second quote if I hadn't asked about it. Methinks not..... |
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OmniSpiker Priceless Contributor
Joined: 09 Feb 2004 Total posts: 3621 Location: Lil'Can Age: 36 Gender: Male 24707.19 Points
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I'm a simple guy...simple things I can relate to...
You want to be faster, try doing things faster. If I didn't know anything about fast and slow twitch muscle fibers, I'll think that it'll be alzhiemer's disease or something.
I'll avoid the weights alltogether, it's easy to get hurt. It's like weight lifting to weight throwing. Nobody trains to throw weights, especially heavy weights.
Also I know that it has something to do with speed in the range of motion. It's easy to be very fast in a very short distance, but try to be fast over a long distance is hard but still possible. _________________ "I''m handicapped on an overkill assignment...mobile, agile, and hostile. I''m still learning only, becuase I don''t know anything about volleyball."
"There''s that funny thing about a B player trying to teach an A player volleyball!" |
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DavetheDog Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Total posts: 432 Location: The Thundercat's lair Gender: Unknown 2610.21 Points
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| OmniSpiker wrote: | I'll avoid the weights alltogether, it's easy to get hurt. It's like weight lifting to weight throwing. Nobody trains to throw weights, especially heavy weights.
Also I know that it has something to do with speed in the range of motion. It's easy to be very fast in a very short distance, but try to be fast over a long distance is hard but still possible. |
You know that there's a fairly famous study that was done a few years back that showed weightlifting to be the safest sport of all...... In terms of numbers of injuries it was easily the safest. So yeah, it's easy to get hurt if you don't know what you're doing. But isn't that the same with most things?
I don't know where your other paragraph comes from. Not particularly relevant to anything.
IMO, weightlifting is not a specific thing. That's not the point of it. It's a general strengthening tool, that's all. There's too much talk of sports specific training, which is a bit of a nonsense. |
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OmniSpiker Priceless Contributor
Joined: 09 Feb 2004 Total posts: 3621 Location: Lil'Can Age: 36 Gender: Male 24707.19 Points
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't really clear about the ROM and speed thing.
I.e. sprinting. The faster your feet makes contact with the ground the faster you can run. However not entirely true because you have to have a good ROM and be able to be fast over the ROM. In the process of training and recruiting fast twitch muscles, it's beneficial to train the muscle over the ROM. Fast twitch muscle are very fast over a little ROM, but not as fast over a bigger ROM. Most often in sports performance, you'll need the entire ROM. _________________ "I''m handicapped on an overkill assignment...mobile, agile, and hostile. I''m still learning only, becuase I don''t know anything about volleyball."
"There''s that funny thing about a B player trying to teach an A player volleyball!" |
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Thumper21 New Member Joined: 18 Jan 2008 Total posts: 8 Gender: Unknown 73.79 Points
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| I'm using this supplement, and it claims to recruit more fast-twitch muscle fibers with jumping- www.instantvertical.com. Only been on it for a few weeks though, but I feel better during workouts. |
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